Mulling something over

[treeskin]

sidhe612 made an interesting comment last time we talked on the phone; it's been floating in my head since, trying to crystallize. Let's see if this gets anywhere close.

A lot of our friends are poly, in one form or another. A certain group of our friends were beginning to explore poly, and it developed into a very long, messy crisis. sidhe612 suggested that perhaps part of the crisis came from the examples of poly practices he had noticed within our community. This made me think about choices By & I had made, and how they might look from outside our head space.

For instance, at Laid-Back Labor Day, 2002, I had a fling with one of the guys in our camp, and By took advantage of the time to enjoy one of our female friends. We both knew about the arrangements ahead of time, no big deal to us, much fun was had by all. And again, at the same event this year, By spent some quality time with friends of ours who'd made a long trip to see us, and I'd picked up a new "pet".

Now, of these four connections, only the one with Pet was a spur-of-the-moment, he's-cute-why-not sort of thing; and I've made an effort to build more of a connection with Pet since (hence my head cold this week). But I can see where the others, if you didn't pay attention to time we spent with the various people beforehand, could look like sport-fucking. (Yes, for the record, the first night with Pet was sport. )

So now, I'm wondering if we should change our behavior so our intent is more clear. Not just because of our friend who's having the crisis, but I wonder if others in our community are seeing the same things in our behaviors.


Something else our friend in the crisis hasn't seemed to catch is the concept of boundaries and permission. He's looked at both as control issues, and seems to me to be very defensive about them. He didn't notice, before my sport with Pet took place, that first I talked to Byron, then Pet talked to Byron--in public, in front of the whole camp. I've been told others in camp noticed, and applauded Pet's manners. But our friend doesn't seem to have caught the lesson that a few simple questions, and honest answers, can keep feelings from being hurt.

Guess I need to think some more.

Comments

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

Okay, granted that X does seem to have separated her crown and root chakras for the most part. I spoke in the heat of my first reaction, so I didn't really mean it personally.
No offense taken. I think I tend to be pretty sympathetic towards X right now, because I feel like I've been as broken as she is right now.

Frankly, I don't think that I myself would be inclined to do anything but make him sign divorce papers and kick him out the door, but that's me. The thing is that, if even Q won't take him back...why is X even thinking about it?
Lady only knows at this point. I seriously hope Q isn't thinking about taking him back; that wouldn't be healthy. My only guess on X's viewpoint is that it's only been two weeks since the revelations began, and she's still in shock and reeling.

I honestly don't think that Y can be trusted.
Me neither, and I am very saddened by this. I had thought better of him, before, oh, July or so.

The fact that he's been trying to make X think she was crazy alone would be enough for me. But then, I've been there. Remember Marty?
This is By's viewpoint also (citing your experience with Marty, and your parents, and some of my experiences). He spent several hours trying to explain to X why he felt that the emotional manipulation was a greater betrayal than the rest. Now, I just need to get By to sit down and try to explain it to Y...X has asked By (and some of the other guys in Heretic Camp) to sit Y down and talk to him, feeling that a male perspective might be better received. I know Chuck's been trying. Cy, I think, has been trying as well, although his behavior is also somewhat suspect, so he might be seen more as a partner in crime.

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

I think the common thread here is that first, they don't see that limits and boundaries are something you impose on yourself, rather than something your partner imposes on you.

We need to include this point in our point in our poly seminar. This is a much clearer expression of what I was trying to tell Y last week.

Veto power...is exerting a control on your partner. However, my rationalizations are as follows. First, it's mutual. Ranj and I have equal say over each other's relationships, because we recognize that our pair-bond is the most important thing in our lives. Second, it's reciprocal: Ranj has the power because I have given it to him. And vice-versa. Neither of us has tried to take that power, or impose it on one another.

This too. In fact, you mind if I lift this paragraph and send it to X as food for thought?

[draco-kc.livejournal.com]

I like the way that was stated, too. Well done.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I've been thinking an awful lot about this over the past few months. The anti-veto crowd had never really obtruded on my consciousness and then suddenly they were everywhere, saying things that made me cry "No, no!" in aesthetic dismay, because the rhetoric they employ against limits and boundaries or vetos ignores the point of these relationship tools. They argue against what they perceive or believe rather than against what these things are.

Obviously I'm still in the process of developing my thoughts on the matter, but I'm starting to be able to first, state the problem and then form responses. This of course required me to really process intellectually my emotional ideas and beliefs about limits and vetos, which took some time. I think, however, that I've come to a greater understanding about how these things work, and why, and that has been very valuable for me personally, as well as providing me with a rational basis to counter the anti crowd's arguments.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

Sure, of course.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

X has asked By (and some of the other guys in Heretic Camp) to sit Y down and talk to him, feeling that a male perspective might be better received.

Frankly, I think this is a bad sign too. If Y is refusing to believe that women can have valuable perspective on things to do with love and relationships, what does this say about whether he's going to be willing to listen to X when she says "Stop, you've crossed the line"?

Perhaps Y believes that the abusive bullshit he's been engaging in is what any man would do if he had the chance, and so believes that a male perspective will be more favorable toward him, and that men shouldn't be held to a high standard of behavior?

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

I think she's looking at it as Y seeing that I and Amy (another member of Heretic Camp), being women, are more sympathetic towards herself and Q, whereas Y might see By & the other guys as "more in his camp".

*shrug*

I dunno.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

Hm. This whole situation is just fucked, you realize that. *grump*

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

Darling, I figured that out a long time ago.