Been thinking

[treeskin]

About friends, and former friends, and honor, and respect.

A while back, jdoryt posted an essay on forgiveness. That sparked questions in my mind about forgiveness, both for myself, and for people around me.

I firmly believe that some things are unforgiveable. Murder, rape, harming a child, betraying your word, burning a book--the usual things, I think.

I've become estranged from a couple of formerly close friends the last two years, because of this. I've talked with one of them, some; not enough to repair the damage, but it's a start. The other.....I just don't know. I realize I should have said something about the original incident when it happened, but at the time, we were very busy, and very tired, and I just didn't know what to say. That, coupled with a realization that this relationship had become very one-sided--well, I just allowed this person to drift away. Part of me feels like I should sit down with the individual, at least long enough to tell them why I've drifted away. Another part of me says don't bother, because they haven't tried to talk to me in the last two years, and they probably haven't noticed I'm gone.

Closer to home, reading Dory's post brought me to realize that there are some things I've never forgiven myself for. Being raped: no matter how many times friends tell me those three nights were not my fault, there's still a twinge of guilt in my mind. Especially about the second time....I knew what I was going to, and had I said something, refused to go, it would not have happened. But I didn't, out of pride, and fear of what my family would say. And that's what I can't forgive, now.

Comments

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

It wasn't your fault. And I know, you know I know, how little good that really does, to be told by other people. Sometimes, no matter how hard people tell you it's not your fault, you find yourself insisting harder that it is your fault, you did something wrong, you said something wrong. Because sometimes being responsible for something awful seems better than acknowledging that you're not always in control of everything.

But you know, sometimes you're not in control. Sometimes things happen to you because of bad choices other people made, and there's nothing you can do about that except go on. And you've gone on to be someone really extraordinary.

And I love you.

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Sometimes, being able to just articulate what's been in my head, nagging at me, helps put it in it's proper perspective.

Other times, I feel less extraordinary, and more extraordinarily broken. For the record, today was not one of those days. Mostly mental housecleaning while I pruned things this afternoon.

Thanks, love.

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

It strikes me as odd that I think I feel it more now, than I did 10 years ago. Or maybe I acknowledge it now, and I didn't then. *shrug*

[zerself.livejournal.com]

I’ve been thinking about the idea of unforgivability since you first commented on my other post…that its been so cloudy in my head and I hadn’t gotten focused enough to sit down and write out what I thought about it. I think part of the reason is that I write on LJ at work, and thinking about not forgiving (especially myself) in an arena where I hold myself to such high standards probably isn’t a good mix. But it’s a calm day and I’ll take my brain there anyway…

I think something being unforgivable is entirely person dependant, not thing dependant. So, for me…its less about a generic group of actions (murder, rape, etc) than it is about the action of one person, my perception of their action, and my guttural reaction to it. Unforgivablity is about what I cannot forgive, of myself and others. Sometimes that’s not really a rational thing.

I completely identify with the situation about the couple you’re talking about…mostly because I left something like that behind me on the east coast. For me, its become more about not forgiving myself for not healing things, than it is about not forgiving them (if that makes any sense at all *grin*). In truth I don’t even remember what all the nastiness was really about most days. The farther away from it you get, the fuzzier it gets, until all that’s left is the unsettled slack tension of things unresolved. Is it worthwhile to sit down and talk it out now? I suppose that all depends on what you want out of it…in your situation (or what I’m guessing it is…), it all depends on if you want these people in your life, and to what degree. If far away (emotionally) is close enough, it may not be worth treading through to talk it over. Its hard to demand someone to take responsibility for their actions so that you can forgive them….especially if they’re still in process of figuring out exactly what they did. My lesson was that unresolved means you carry it. Anger is a heavy thing to carry...and as much as there is a point where you need to let someone go so you aren't carrying thier problems, is carrying anger about the situation any lighter years later?

I think that forgiving yourself is one of the hardest things to do. . . To really let something that you feel responsibility for go…to acknowledge either that you aren’t responsible for it (even if you feel guilt for it), or that you did the best that you could in a situation with the person who you were at that moment, or that you can’t change what happened, and therefore the best that you can do for the person you are now is to learn from it and leave that painful thing that you did (or in this case, that was done to you) in the past. The things I can’t forgive myself for are different than this thing that you can’t forgive yourself for but I wish it was as simple as forgiving each other for the things we can’t release ourselves from….I wish I could steal absolution from the Christians for a moment, and really feel it. Not for the sense of wiping sins clean (ick...) but more because i wish i had some higher power who could clean out nagging guilt that i don't want anymore.
I wish I could box it up and lend it to you before I returned it to a random confessional. I wish a lot of things.

You're a tremendous human being, and i love you muchly....

~ dory

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

The "unsettled slack tension of things unresolved" --that's a very good way to describe what's left of that relationship, and what's in my head about that relationship. By's pretty much written them off. Part of me feels like I ought to try, for the sake of the friendship we had. An older, more tired voice in my head says I don't need this, or the baggage that would come with bringing them back into our lives. The one I haven't talked to apparently doesn't think he did anything wrong (according to his bragging about it shortly after it happened, and things he said to his partner), and I don't think I could convince him. And I don't think I want to be friends with someone who I'd have to be a moral compass for. (If that's what I wanted, I'd have kids. And they'd grow out of it.)

You know, I never felt absolution from the church, when I was Christian (and there was a time when I tried desperately to be, because it made my mother happy, and so few things did then), but I'd go walking in the rain, and feel better for a little while, then guilty because it was pagan, and wrong. (The church I was raised in had a broad definition of what was pagan, and therefore wrong. I used to get into trouble for reading Star Trek books, because of Spock's ears.)

Like I told Cat, if I can put into words what's nagging me, it helps...maybe not banish the feelings, but put them in perspective. Putting label on it helps me put it in a box and put it away. I'll probably always wonder, if I hadn't gone that second time...I'm human, how can I not wonder? Looking at it now, if I could go back and change it, I would, in the hope of not putting Byron and myself through the five years of nightmares and panic attacks. But I can't change it, and I am reasonably stable now, stable enough to talk about those events rationally, which is something I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to do.

Time is a great emotional anesthetic. And Byron, and the last 13 yrs (eek, that makes me feel old) have been good for me.

Thank you for being supportive, and for asking thought-provoking questions in the first place.

[zerself.livejournal.com]

You know...for what its worth (and in no way attempting to say what decision you should make about that friendship) when i talked to the he of the 2, he did acknowledge that he'd done wrong. Its been awhile since i have talked to either of them (which isn't surprising given the nature of that friendship: they are each people I care for, and call friends. I see them only a few times a year, usually at fests. There is history there to rely upon...and a certain pattern of being)
Feeling like you need to parent a friend is draining. I've written alot about that lately, specific to some stuff going on in my household. (I had posted about it, but locked it to only a few people, i think your screename fell through the cracks...but i'm going to go add you to that filter, not that you have to go read the insanity and stress of my last few months, but its there if my ramblings offer you any more good questions on this issue *grin*).
Parenting people who should be perfectly responsible adults is exhausting and infuriating. In this case, since this was a close friendship once (i'm assuming...) then if you were going to confront this with them, I would think that you would need to be upfront about NOT being anyone's moral compass. . . and feeling like you had been put in that position...and then conflicted with because you, as the appointed moral compass didn't approve of actions taken. Its a position that can easiliy backfire, but given how much of this whole mess was about NOT communicating (at all or truthfully), even though communication is always held up as the primary pillar of polyamory, i don't see how truly mending things could involve anything less.

i'm glad writing and talking helps you untangle stuff for yourself...it does the same thing for me. I write on LJ, because sometimes having another person pick at the snarls of the inside of my head helps them loosen them so i can understand them better.

my upbringing in the church was VERY different (i was brought up congregationalist), and although i never felt absolution (mostly cause we didn't have it...)its one of the points from Catholism i've always been intrigued by...I wonder if i fully works for anyone. Partly, that's what inspired my first post....how do you achieve absolution/forgiveness if it isn't granted from on high? how do you hunt it down and get it for yourself?

asking questions keeps my brain from withering away, if you get anything from it too that's awesome. thanks for thinking these things over with me....dialogue always makes writing about ideas more satisfying.

support, in whatever way i can offer it, is always here for you...
{{hug}}

Re: relationships

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

By & I talked some about this during dinner tonight. I guess, partly, I didn't know how to start such a conversation, and rather hoped that he would say something, like she did. And the times I've seen him this year have all been too public and crowded for such a talk.

Still not sure how much I want to salvage, if at all, but I feel like I should say something, if nothing else, then "this is why I went away." But there's a lot of baggage there, from more than one incident, a lot of things which I would have brushed asie if it'd been just that one thing, but taken en mass....and that's part of the communication problem as well, I just don't know how to say all that, without making it sound like a laundry list of complaints.

Re: relationships

[zerself.livejournal.com]

you can't make it sound like anything other than what it is...and in this case, you do have a list...because it was a cultimation of many things. I think if you start by saying that, by acknowledging that it was as series of events not a singular event, it won't sound like you've been keeping tally of things done wrong. silly really, because i don't think anyone comes up with a list of things done wrong by friends...mostly people operate on the final staw on the camels back method of fed-up-edness. For me, its like an analogy i used in one of my angry posts...in situations like this in my own life, its like the tension becomes a super saturated solution, and one more crystal makes it all drop out in a rush. (can you tell i was a science geek in highschool? *grin*).

you'll find what you need to say, an how you need to say it, when it needs to be said. and that is dory's zen thought o' the day
{{hug}}

Re: relationships

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

You're right hon, but still, I worry. It's my nature.

And you're very right about the "final straw" level of fed-up-edness. That was exactly where By & I were two years ago. Since then, we've been looking at each other and asking "now what are we supposed to do?"

It'll happen when it happens, I guess. Good thought. I have more important things to worry about right now (see yesterday's post about my sister).

Re: relationships

[zerself.livejournal.com]

yup. it will.

i read that post...sounds like your family is going though a rough time with this...I hope that the might becomes clearer soon so your sister know's what she's dealing with, and i wish you all strength and calm in the middle of some hard news.

Re: relationships

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

Thanks, hon. I keep telling myself not to worry too much yet, because it's still a "maybe" until the other test are done, but my mom is usually the Rock of Gibralter when it comes to family crisis, and having her leave work early (which she almot never does) and call and emote at me that strongly...oy. My mom doesn' t realize how much she projects when she's at an emotional extreme--it's cool at the upside, she's a lot of fun, and those happen much more often.

As for the relationship issues, I think I've decided to let it ride (unless he comes to me and says something) until Heartland, and if he hasn't by then, I'm gong to try to sit him down and have a talk. It seems like a long deadline, but I know my schedule, and I know his work schedule is exactly opposite mine, which does hinder communication.

Re: absolution and church

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

I, too, was raised congregationalist--Church of Christ. But that group does a "stand up in front of everyone and confess, and all is forgiven" thing....if you (or your pastor) feels you've made a mistake, or are having a problem, you're supposed to stand up in front of the group, just before the sermon, and talk about it, and the group is supposed to be supportive and forgiving. My mom did it, when Dad continued to drink too much, despite Mom's devout prayers and the best efforts of three rehab centers. Of course, this same minister told Mom that part of Dad's problem was that she wasn't being a good enough Christian, and that things would fix themselves if she prayed harder and was a better wife. Mom believed it; I didn't.

Never thought that the Catholic confessional was that practical....yeah, the idea of having one priest to confess to and be counselled by has some appeal, but these are men that are not that experienced in the world (at least, not the ones I've known), and it seems more than passing strange to be counselled on something like married life by someone who's sworn to celibacy. And I am slow to trust, doubly so when I'm told a person is someone trustworthy, just because he wears a priest's collar (or any other random authority figure, not just clergy).

And I've wandered quite a ways from your original question. I guess, one way to achieve absolution is to accept that a mistake was made, and learn from it, and be mindful of the lesson later in life. Best answer I've got.

Re: absolution and church

[ladymurmur.livejournal.com]

One of the objects of my contemplation recently has been the relationship between absolution/forgiveness and healing. I've come to the conclusion that one cannot happen without the other; however their interaction seems to be something of a chicken-or-the-egg situation. And I'm not sure how to best dive into the cycle. Forgiveness is a part of healing, and sometimes healing can't happen without it. Then again, many times forgiveness (or self OR others) cannot occur unless there has been healing. And sometimes, I feel it is catch-22 -can't heal without forgiving, but can't forgive without healing... how do you break into the cycle?

I never felt a sense of absolution in my church upbringing (mostly lutheran, but spiced with quite a bit of variety, from catholic to pentecostal, and quite a range in between). What I often felt was either catharsis (similar to the result of a really good cry) or relief from responsibility (Daddy made it all better now, it is taken care of).

The most vivid memory I have of any sort of intended confession/absolution/forgiveness occasion was during my confirmation retreat. Many times that weekend the pastors attempted to share the depths of our shared faith with us younguns through symbols or object lessons. One night, we gathered around the wood burning stove, and the topic was sin and god's forgiveness. After much reading, sermonizing and discussion, we were given paper and pencils and told to write on it some sin, some struggle, something we felt needed to be forgiven, and we would burn them in the fire. What to write? I was an 8th grader, and a true "good girl" - somehow writing "told mom white lie" or "got mad at my brother" or "pretended to be sick" didn't seem worthy of such a symbolic action. Finally, as everyone else was tossing their folded papers into the flames, I wrote "forgive me for not knowing what to do", folded the paper into a tiny square and tossed it into the flames. "As you watch your paper burn, know that your sins are cleansed away" I suddenly felt relief - but not because some all-seeing, all-knowing, all-whatevering deity had somehow karmically wiped my slate clean, but because I realized that I was human! It was OK that I didn't know what to do. I needn't feel guilty for it, or somehow inferior - I was 14 years old and doing my best to learn and grow.. and that was OK. It was no sin to be human... (this was probably the point in my life when I began to question the concept of sin, and thus the basis for my personal belief system... definitely not what the pastors or the confirmation curriculum had in mind. :-)

Somehow, I wonder if "true" absolution isn't akin to mindwipe - if some deity can really "make it didn't happen" would we even remember whatever our "sin" was? would we 'forgive and forget'? Does forgiveness granted to another person for their actions to us automatically reinstate them to all their former trust/friendship/privileges/position?

I'm rambling here, certainly not trying to make any pronouncements or Statements of Truth(tm). This is something I would sincerely like to understand better for myself. The conversation thus far has opened some new lines of thought for me.

Re: absolution and church

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

And sometimes, I feel it is catch-22 -can't heal without forgiving, but can't forgive without healing... how do you break into the cycle?

Time. After a while, you're numb enough, or just far enough away in time that things don't hurt anymore when you poke at them. Then, you can start prodding the bits that used to hurt, and wondering about forgiveness. Don't know what happens after the wondering. I'm still at the wondering stage.

I'm sure there's a better way of going about it, besides trying to pretend you're functional and not prod the hurt bits for 14 years.

Maybe...maybe deciding to keep going, trying to stay functional is a way to dive into the process. Maybe turning away from what hurts, and dealing with the day-to-day things, does both: starts the healing, because you're no longer sitting there picking at the wound (metaphysically speaking), and in order to decide to keep living, you have to forgive yourself, at least a little bit.

Re: absolution and church

[zerself.livejournal.com]

well that's a new one on me, i had no idea that Church of Christ sprouted out of the congregationalists. We certainly never had anything remotely like what you're talking about with standing in front of people and such. oddness. I wonder if they are in fact 2 different groups, since the church i was sent to as a kid was a small, mostly new england based, protestant denomination that as i read history i found mostly leaned towards the same place the Quarkers lived. hmmm....

Anyway, I think i've been facinated less with the actual practice of confession in Catholisim and more with what its ideal is, less about the priest and more about the connection to God. The idea is intriguing, the practice is somehow not.

...and i like your answer. its the same one i keep coming back to.

Re: absolution and church

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

We may be talking about different sects, then. The group I was raised in, according to my mom, was an offshoot of the Southern Baptists. Can't say as that's a definitive history, but that's very much the flavor of the group I attended. Very small, very insular, a bit "odd" compared to the Lutheran and Methodist and Catholic congregations which were the norm in that area.

The standing in front of the group and "witnessing" (I believe they called it) bothered me tremendously, and not just when my mom did it. It seemed much less about God and more about regaining/retaining the group's approval, and calculated to humiliate.

Something I know my mom did a lot when I was a kid, that seemed to be of more value, was to sit in the kitchen and pray, when my sister and I were in bed...pray that she could handle the upcoming two-three days' worth of crisis, and could God please take the rest for her until these things were settled first, ecause she just couldn't. She's told me in recent years that just the act of giving up part of the burden to someone else to watch, even for a little while, was a relief.

I'm not a scholar of church history, but I wonder if that isn't closer to the original intent of confession....to narrow the problems down to something you could handle.

Oddly enough, by the time I had a real problem and needed help (after I was raped the first time), what I'd been taught by the church was so condemning of women in my position, I couldn't bring myself to try my mom's method of prayer and solace. I had been taught, for so many years, that if something like that had happened to me, I must have done something to deserve it, further complicated by the fact that the first rape began as conconsentual sex, and got out of hand....that's when a friend pointed at goddess worship, thinking I'd find some kind of solace there.

Re: household issues

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

Went and read your posts....sorry to hear your life's been so tangled lately.

I watched an SCA household implode like that, just before By& I moved to KC (so, 7-8 yrs ago, I guess). We'd been members of the household, but had left when school ate too much of our time to participate, but the four core members had been sharing a home and co-parenting one couple's two children. It was, depending on how many of the group were functional on any given day, either a wonderful place to be, or every argument you'd ever need against communal living. Last we knew, the two couples were living in different towns, and both were near divorce for various reasons.

We fled the drama, and the local SCA, in self-preservation. They'd gotten so wrapped up in their issues with each other, and some members of the local group, they forgot that there were other things to life. Everyone around them was either sucked into the mess, or trying to get out of range. The last time we went back to visit, probably 3 yrs ago, they were still tangled up in their old dramas. Most of the creativity and intelligence that we'd been attracted to in the first place had withered into these old gripes and worries....it's very sad to watch, because individually, they all had potential, but they fed on each other's weaknesses, and just spiralled down.

I've tried to keep this relationship issue out of our group, especially within Heretic Camp, which has enough issues of its own, thank you. Don't know how sucessful that's been.

I unlocked this original post, and commented about it in another post, hoping maybe to start that conversation. We'll see.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

There is at least one person in the Whole Mess (you know what I mean) that I feel like I ought to feel obligated to try to reconnect with, maybe explain that it's hard for me to smile and act like I'm happy to be around people when I feel like I have to be on the defensive with them. But I just can't nerve myself up for that conversation.

I dunno.

[treeskin.livejournal.com]

That's what a lot of this has been for me, in a way....neving myself up for an unpleasant (okay, I don't know that, but I expect it to be) conversation. *sigh* Humans.