treeskin | Been thinking

About friends, and former friends, and honor, and respect.

A while back,

jdoryt posted an essay on forgiveness. That sparked questions in my mind about forgiveness, both for myself, and for people around me.

I firmly believe that some things are unforgiveable. Murder, rape, harming a child, betraying your word, burning a book--the usual things, I think.

I've become estranged from a couple of formerly close friends the last two years, because of this. I've talked with one of them, some; not enough to repair the damage, but it's a start. The other.....I just don't know. I realize I should have said something about the original incident when it happened, but at the time, we were very busy, and very tired, and I just didn't know what to say. That, coupled with a realization that this relationship had become very one-sided--well, I just allowed this person to drift away. Part of me feels like I should sit down with the individual, at least long enough to tell them why I've drifted away. Another part of me says don't bother, because they haven't tried to talk to me in the last two years, and they probably haven't noticed I'm gone.

Closer to home, reading Dory's post brought me to realize that there are some things I've never forgiven myself for. Being raped: no matter how many times friends tell me those three nights were not my fault, there's still a twinge of guilt in my mind. Especially about the second time....I knew what I was going to, and had I said something, refused to go, it would not have happened. But I didn't, out of pride, and fear of what my family would say. And that's what I can't forgive, now.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I, too, was raised congregationalist--Church of Christ. But that group does a "stand up in front of everyone and confess, and all is forgiven" thing....if you (or your pastor) feels you've made a mistake, or are having a problem, you're supposed to stand up in front of the group, just before the sermon, and talk about it, and the group is supposed to be supportive and forgiving. My mom did it, when Dad continued to drink too much, despite Mom's devout prayers and the best efforts of three rehab centers. Of course, this same minister told Mom that part of Dad's problem was that she wasn't being a good enough Christian, and that things would fix themselves if she prayed harder and was a better wife. Mom believed it; I didn't.

Never thought that the Catholic confessional was that practical....yeah, the idea of having one priest to confess to and be counselled by has some appeal, but these are men that are not that experienced in the world (at least, not the ones I've known), and it seems more than passing strange to be counselled on something like married life by someone who's sworn to celibacy. And I am slow to trust, doubly so when I'm told a person is someone trustworthy, just because he wears a priest's collar (or any other random authority figure, not just clergy).

And I've wandered quite a ways from your original question. I guess, one way to achieve absolution is to accept that a mistake was made, and learn from it, and be mindful of the lesson later in life. Best answer I've got.

One of the objects of my contemplation recently has been the relationship between absolution/forgiveness and healing. I've come to the conclusion that one cannot happen without the other; however their interaction seems to be something of a chicken-or-the-egg situation. And I'm not sure how to best dive into the cycle. Forgiveness is a part of healing, and sometimes healing can't happen without it. Then again, many times forgiveness (or self OR others) cannot occur unless there has been healing. And sometimes, I feel it is catch-22 -can't heal without forgiving, but can't forgive without healing... how do you break into the cycle?

I never felt a sense of absolution in my church upbringing (mostly lutheran, but spiced with quite a bit of variety, from catholic to pentecostal, and quite a range in between). What I often felt was either catharsis (similar to the result of a really good cry) or relief from responsibility (Daddy made it all better now, it is taken care of).

The most vivid memory I have of any sort of intended confession/absolution/forgiveness occasion was during my confirmation retreat. Many times that weekend the pastors attempted to share the depths of our shared faith with us younguns through symbols or object lessons. One night, we gathered around the wood burning stove, and the topic was sin and god's forgiveness. After much reading, sermonizing and discussion, we were given paper and pencils and told to write on it some sin, some struggle, something we felt needed to be forgiven, and we would burn them in the fire. What to write? I was an 8th grader, and a true "good girl" - somehow writing "told mom white lie" or "got mad at my brother" or "pretended to be sick" didn't seem worthy of such a symbolic action. Finally, as everyone else was tossing their folded papers into the flames, I wrote "forgive me for not knowing what to do", folded the paper into a tiny square and tossed it into the flames. "As you watch your paper burn, know that your sins are cleansed away" I suddenly felt relief - but not because some all-seeing, all-knowing, all-whatevering deity had somehow karmically wiped my slate clean, but because I realized that I was human! It was OK that I didn't know what to do. I needn't feel guilty for it, or somehow inferior - I was 14 years old and doing my best to learn and grow.. and that was OK. It was no sin to be human... (this was probably the point in my life when I began to question the concept of sin, and thus the basis for my personal belief system... definitely not what the pastors or the confirmation curriculum had in mind. :-)

Somehow, I wonder if "true" absolution isn't akin to mindwipe - if some deity can really "make it didn't happen" would we even remember whatever our "sin" was? would we 'forgive and forget'? Does forgiveness granted to another person for their actions to us automatically reinstate them to all their former trust/friendship/privileges/position?

I'm rambling here, certainly not trying to make any pronouncements or Statements of Truth(tm). This is something I would sincerely like to understand better for myself. The conversation thus far has opened some new lines of thought for me.

And sometimes, I feel it is catch-22 -can't heal without forgiving, but can't forgive without healing... how do you break into the cycle?

Time. After a while, you're numb enough, or just far enough away in time that things don't hurt anymore when you poke at them. Then, you can start prodding the bits that used to hurt, and wondering about forgiveness. Don't know what happens after the wondering. I'm still at the wondering stage.

I'm sure there's a better way of going about it, besides trying to pretend you're functional and not prod the hurt bits for 14 years.

Maybe...maybe deciding to keep going, trying to stay functional is a way to dive into the process. Maybe turning away from what hurts, and dealing with the day-to-day things, does both: starts the healing, because you're no longer sitting there picking at the wound (metaphysically speaking), and in order to decide to keep living, you have to forgive yourself, at least a little bit.

well that's a new one on me, i had no idea that Church of Christ sprouted out of the congregationalists. We certainly never had anything remotely like what you're talking about with standing in front of people and such. oddness. I wonder if they are in fact 2 different groups, since the church i was sent to as a kid was a small, mostly new england based, protestant denomination that as i read history i found mostly leaned towards the same place the Quarkers lived. hmmm....

Anyway, I think i've been facinated less with the actual practice of confession in Catholisim and more with what its ideal is, less about the priest and more about the connection to God. The idea is intriguing, the practice is somehow not.

...and i like your answer. its the same one i keep coming back to.

We may be talking about different sects, then. The group I was raised in, according to my mom, was an offshoot of the Southern Baptists. Can't say as that's a definitive history, but that's very much the flavor of the group I attended. Very small, very insular, a bit "odd" compared to the Lutheran and Methodist and Catholic congregations which were the norm in that area.

The standing in front of the group and "witnessing" (I believe they called it) bothered me tremendously, and not just when my mom did it. It seemed much less about God and more about regaining/retaining the group's approval, and calculated to humiliate.

Something I know my mom did a lot when I was a kid, that seemed to be of more value, was to sit in the kitchen and pray, when my sister and I were in bed...pray that she could handle the upcoming two-three days' worth of crisis, and could God please take the rest for her until these things were settled first, ecause she just couldn't. She's told me in recent years that just the act of giving up part of the burden to someone else to watch, even for a little while, was a relief.

I'm not a scholar of church history, but I wonder if that isn't closer to the original intent of confession....to narrow the problems down to something you could handle.

Oddly enough, by the time I had a real problem and needed help (after I was raped the first time), what I'd been taught by the church was so condemning of women in my position, I couldn't bring myself to try my mom's method of prayer and solace. I had been taught, for so many years, that if something like that had happened to me, I must have done something to deserve it, further complicated by the fact that the first rape began as conconsentual sex, and got out of hand....that's when a friend pointed at goddess worship, thinking I'd find some kind of solace there.

Been thinking

Re: absolution and church

Re: absolution and church

Re: absolution and church

Re: absolution and church

Re: absolution and church